Topics

Malmish Platt And Mueheim An Der Ruhr


Bill Willis
 

A while back I asked about an unusual name construction in the Records of St. Peter Evangelisch in Muelheim An Der Ruhr.

as an example names using the constructions such as

Uffm Hoffe
Zum Hoff
Im Hoff
Aufder Huef
Aufm Haff
Zu Hoff

etc.

Lots and Lots of different variations all of which seem to take the sense of “from the”, “to the” “in the” “at the” “out of” and even “on top of” etc.

I got some very useful and interesting responses to that query, one of which noted that some of these same constructions (Uffm, Aufm, etc) were also found in Pennsylvania Dutch.

Since these previous messages I’ve come across additional information that identifies these variants as characteristic of “Malmich Platt” which dialect is centered close to Muelheim An Der Ruhr.

It’s localization is interesting as There were a substantial number of early (1684-1700) immigrants to Penns Woods who came from Muelheim An Der Ruhr, and settled eventually in the heart of Pennsylvania Dutch Country.

I take it that Malmich Platt is a form of Platt Deutch. As an illustration of my ignorance I was totally unaware that there were separate Low German dialects—always though it was one big dialect.

___

Note that in the above list all of terminal name elements are variants of or similar to “Hof”

Hof has a number of different meanings—and I suspect that the usual sense of the word takes the meaning of “courtyard”, and has sort of royal or noble connotation
In this case I suspect the meaning is more like “farmyard”, or more specifically just “farm”

Note also that the terminal element is not always that close to Hof or Hoff. Sometimes it takes the form of Haff, Haffen, Haven etc.

Which brings me to my question—are all of these names actually surnames, or are they more like a by-name (e.g., John By the Farm, vs John By the Harbor (from the sense of “Haven” meaning--in Dutch for example-- port or harbor?

The reason I’m asking is because if they are surnames, perhaps they imply a common ancestry, even if the form of the name changes. If so We can perhaps ferret out the kinship connection between people bearing these names
If they are more like Bynames, and these are temporary designations, and can’t be easily used to determine family connections. (e.g., same name but unrelated people).

I’d appreciate any thoughts on this.

I’ve also got a question about why there are so many obvious similarities to the Dutch language in these names. There are, for example other elements in these names such as “op”, “te” and “ter” which have no German equivalent, but seem to be Dutch in origin. But one thing at at time.

Bill


John W. Kitz <John.Kitz-gen@...>
 

Bill,

Without going into a lot of detail myself on the word meaning of the word hof in several languages I'd refer you to https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hof. Since I am a Dutch native, I'll use some examples from the Dutch language.

Dutch -> English
Gerechtshof -> Court of appeal
Hofje -> courtyard with almshouses around it
Hofhouding -> the entirety of persons with whom a high secular or spiritual ruler surrounds himself
Hofstede -> farmhouse, country house or castle

On the reason for a lot of the similarities between the German and Dutch languages in particular I'd refer you to e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages#West_Germanic_languages as well as the history since medieval times of the geographic area comprised of the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg and Germany and how these countries came into being over the course of time.

You'll find one example of the latter here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_J%C3%BClich#History. Part of the geographic area that once was the Duchy of Jülich today belongs to Germany, while another part today belongs to The Netherlands.

Regards, Jk.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@German-genealogy-ENG.groups.io [mailto:main@German-genealogy-ENG.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Willis
Sent: Sunday, 12 July, 2020 14:37
To: main@german-genealogy-eng.groups.io
Subject: [German-genealogy-ENG] Malmish Platt And Mueheim An Der Ruhr


A while back I asked about an unusual name construction in the Records of St. Peter Evangelisch in Muelheim An Der Ruhr.

as an example names using the constructions such as

Uffm Hoffe
Zum Hoff
Im Hoff
Aufder Huef
Aufm Haff
Zu Hoff

etc.

Lots and Lots of different variations all of which seem to take the sense of “from the”, “to the” “in the” “at the” “out of” and even “on top of” etc.

I got some very useful and interesting responses to that query, one of which noted that some of these same constructions (Uffm, Aufm, etc) were also found in Pennsylvania Dutch.

Since these previous messages I’ve come across additional information that identifies these variants as characteristic of “Malmich Platt” which dialect is centered close to Muelheim An Der Ruhr.

It’s localization is interesting as There were a substantial number of early (1684-1700) immigrants to Penns Woods who came from Muelheim An Der Ruhr, and settled eventually in the heart of Pennsylvania Dutch Country.

I take it that Malmich Platt is a form of Platt Deutch. As an illustration of my ignorance I was totally unaware that there were separate Low German dialects—always though it was one big dialect.

___

Note that in the above list all of terminal name elements are variants of or similar to “Hof”

Hof has a number of different meanings—and I suspect that the usual sense of the word takes the meaning of “courtyard”, and has sort of royal or noble connotation
In this case I suspect the meaning is more like “farmyard”, or more specifically just “farm”

Note also that the terminal element is not always that close to Hof or Hoff. Sometimes it takes the form of Haff, Haffen, Haven etc.

Which brings me to my question—are all of these names actually surnames, or are they more like a by-name (e.g., John By the Farm, vs John By the Harbor (from the sense of “Haven” meaning--in Dutch for example-- port or harbor?

The reason I’m asking is because if they are surnames, perhaps they imply a common ancestry, even if the form of the name changes. If so We can perhaps ferret out the kinship connection between people bearing these names
If they are more like Bynames, and these are temporary designations, and can’t be easily used to determine family connections. (e.g., same name but unrelated people).

I’d appreciate any thoughts on this.

I’ve also got a question about why there are so many obvious similarities to the Dutch language in these names. There are, for example other elements in these names such as “op”, “te” and “ter” which have no German equivalent, but seem to be Dutch in origin. But one thing at at time.

Bill


Bill Willis
 

Thank You! I’ve never paid much attention to Wicktionary, but now with your pointer to “hof” I better see its utility.

Old maps for the area around Muelheim an Der Ruhr show many place names ending in “hof”. Its so common that I don’t think the term would be an indication of the location of a court, but more likely to be related to the presence of a farm or perhaps something in English that we might think of as a manor house. When we see the term as the terminal element in what looks like a surname (e.g. Uffm Hoffe) that may be because its not so much a surname as a by-name as in "Heinrich Uffm Hoffen” indicates only that this Heinrich is the one from a farm, as opposed to another Heinrich who lives in the city. If that’s the case then we aren’t looking at heritable surnames, and so the name does not lend itself for tracking ancestry.

The other part of the question is “does this suggest Dutch ancestry” or are these scribal distinctions—that is the product of someone recording names based on their personal language preferences—I know that in the mid 1600’s the minister of the Muelheim Evngelische church was a Dutch Pietist, so during that period at least we might see some names being converted into Dutch equivalents. The Dutch equivalents seem to go back much further than that, as I’ve seen similar names from the mid 1500’s.

Bill

On Jul 14, 2020, at 3:41 AM, John W. Kitz <John.Kitz-gen@...> wrote:

Bill,

Without going into a lot of detail myself on the word meaning of the word hof in several languages I'd refer you to https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hof. Since I am a Dutch native, I'll use some examples from the Dutch language.

Dutch -> English
Gerechtshof -> Court of appeal
Hofje -> courtyard with almshouses around it
Hofhouding -> the entirety of persons with whom a high secular or spiritual ruler surrounds himself
Hofstede -> farmhouse, country house or castle

On the reason for a lot of the similarities between the German and Dutch languages in particular I'd refer you to e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages#West_Germanic_languages as well as the history since medieval times of the geographic area comprised of the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg and Germany and how these countries came into being over the course of time.

You'll find one example of the latter here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_J%C3%BClich#History. Part of the geographic area that once was the Duchy of Jülich today belongs to Germany, while another part today belongs to The Netherlands.

Regards, Jk.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@German-genealogy-ENG.groups.io [mailto:main@German-genealogy-ENG.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Willis
Sent: Sunday, 12 July, 2020 14:37
To: main@german-genealogy-eng.groups.io
Subject: [German-genealogy-ENG] Malmish Platt And Mueheim An Der Ruhr


A while back I asked about an unusual name construction in the Records of St. Peter Evangelisch in Muelheim An Der Ruhr.

as an example names using the constructions such as

Uffm Hoffe
Zum Hoff
Im Hoff
Aufder Huef
Aufm Haff
Zu Hoff

etc.

Lots and Lots of different variations all of which seem to take the sense of “from the”, “to the” “in the” “at the” “out of” and even “on top of” etc.

I got some very useful and interesting responses to that query, one of which noted that some of these same constructions (Uffm, Aufm, etc) were also found in Pennsylvania Dutch.

Since these previous messages I’ve come across additional information that identifies these variants as characteristic of “Malmich Platt” which dialect is centered close to Muelheim An Der Ruhr.

It’s localization is interesting as There were a substantial number of early (1684-1700) immigrants to Penns Woods who came from Muelheim An Der Ruhr, and settled eventually in the heart of Pennsylvania Dutch Country.

I take it that Malmich Platt is a form of Platt Deutch. As an illustration of my ignorance I was totally unaware that there were separate Low German dialects—always though it was one big dialect.

___

Note that in the above list all of terminal name elements are variants of or similar to “Hof”

Hof has a number of different meanings—and I suspect that the usual sense of the word takes the meaning of “courtyard”, and has sort of royal or noble connotation
In this case I suspect the meaning is more like “farmyard”, or more specifically just “farm”

Note also that the terminal element is not always that close to Hof or Hoff. Sometimes it takes the form of Haff, Haffen, Haven etc.

Which brings me to my question—are all of these names actually surnames, or are they more like a by-name (e.g., John By the Farm, vs John By the Harbor (from the sense of “Haven” meaning--in Dutch for example-- port or harbor?

The reason I’m asking is because if they are surnames, perhaps they imply a common ancestry, even if the form of the name changes. If so We can perhaps ferret out the kinship connection between people bearing these names
If they are more like Bynames, and these are temporary designations, and can’t be easily used to determine family connections. (e.g., same name but unrelated people).

I’d appreciate any thoughts on this.

I’ve also got a question about why there are so many obvious similarities to the Dutch language in these names. There are, for example other elements in these names such as “op”, “te” and “ter” which have no German equivalent, but seem to be Dutch in origin. But one thing at at time.

Bill