Topics

Hans vs. Johann

Stuart Bechman
 

I am familiar with the historical German practice of assigning a Christian saint as a child's vorname (first name) to a child and the child going by his/her middle name, resulting in entire male or female siblings in a family sharing the same vorname.
Among my many German ancestral families, I have a couple of them whose male children's vornames seem to be a mix of "Hans" and "Johann", sometimes for the same male child across different records.

Can anyone tell me whether "Hans" and "Johann" are interchangeable names?  They don't seem so, but I'm at a loss to explain the use of both within a single family.

-Stuart

Allison Kendrick
 

I named my daughter Eva after a grandma, but then found so many Eva’s on the German side Reim that is was incredible. Add to that there was a first cousin marriage, who also had many Evas as first names, and we were sometimes quite confused!

On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 12:22 AM Stuart Bechman <sbechman@...> wrote:
I am familiar with the historical German practice of assigning a Christian saint as a child's vorname (first name) to a child and the child going by his/her middle name, resulting in entire male or female siblings in a family sharing the same vorname.
Among my many German ancestral families, I have a couple of them whose male children's vornames seem to be a mix of "Hans" and "Johann", sometimes for the same male child across different records.

Can anyone tell me whether "Hans" and "Johann" are interchangeable names?  They don't seem so, but I'm at a loss to explain the use of both within a single family.

-Stuart

Ernst Mettlach
 

Stuart,
Hans is simply the short form of Johann or Johannes. My uncles name is Johann but I cannot remember that anyone ever called him Johannes. He is simply Hans (or Hänns, in our dialect). The same with my name. Everyone calls me Erni, not Ernst. This name appears sometimes in official documents, e.g. school certificates. I think the same happened in your documents. Hans and Johannes are interchangeable.
Regards,
Ernst
 

Am Sa., 25. Juli 2020 um 07:22 Uhr schrieb Stuart Bechman <sbechman@...>:

I am familiar with the historical German practice of assigning a Christian saint as a child's vorname (first name) to a child and the child going by his/her middle name, resulting in entire male or female siblings in a family sharing the same vorname.
Among my many German ancestral families, I have a couple of them whose male children's vornames seem to be a mix of "Hans" and "Johann", sometimes for the same male child across different records.

Can anyone tell me whether "Hans" and "Johann" are interchangeable names?  They don't seem so, but I'm at a loss to explain the use of both within a single family.

-Stuart

Stuart Bechman
 

Thank you, Erni, that explains a lot for me.
-Stuart

Barbara McStowe
 

Yes, I thank you too! Good to know this.
Barbara

On Jul 25, 2020, at 8:25 AM, Stuart Bechman <sbechman@...> wrote:

Thank you, Erni, that explains a lot for me.
-Stuart

carrotarms
 


Hans is the nickname for Johann. My eldest was named Johann but we calked him Hans when he was young.


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

Hanneke Wood
 

The same happens in Dutch -when there's a small pool of names and you get too many in the family you have to differentiate somehow -and then also there was the habit of giving a formal name for the birth certificate: so my Uncle Hans was Johannes Fredericus, my Uncle Marin was Marinus Franciscus. My name is actually Johanna, as was my grandmother -she was Han, and i am Hanneke -you could also find Hannie, Hannetje and Johanneke all in the same family and probably all christened Johanna. On Dutch forms there's always a place to fill in your informal name as well as your formal name.

Chris Pitt Lewis
 

How should I pronounce the Dutch "tje" ending? I have an ancestor from a Dutch family in colonial New York who appears in the records as "Annatje" or "Antje". I was told by a New York genealogist to pronounce it the same as "Anneke", but I am not sure that is right.

Chris Pitt Lewis
On 26/07/2020 09:46, Hanneke Wood wrote:

The same happens in Dutch -when there's a small pool of names and you get too many in the family you have to differentiate somehow -and then also there was the habit of giving a formal name for the birth certificate: so my Uncle Hans was Johannes Fredericus, my Uncle Marin was Marinus Franciscus. My name is actually Johanna, as was my grandmother -she was Han, and i am Hanneke -you could also find Hannie, Hannetje and Johanneke all in the same family and probably all christened Johanna. On Dutch forms there's always a place to fill in your informal name as well as your formal name.

John W. Kitz
 

Chris, and others,

 

This https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-tje Wiktionary article probably answers your question.

 

Etymology [of -tje]

From Middle Dutch -kijn, from Old Dutch -kīn, which is the ancestor of the suffixes -ke, -ken, -tje (and its subvarieties: -je, -etje, -pje, -kje) and Afrikaans -tjie ([ki]).

 

So as far as writing and meaning goes I would say Antje and Anneke are similar but not the same, that is to say An + -tje = Antje whereas Anne + -ke = Anneke.

 

For the pronunciation of -tje, make sure your headphones or speakers are plugged and your volume is set to a comfortable level and click on the play button.

 

From personal experience and considering I'm not the author of the article I'm referring to above; the article seems to be missing the variation -tie, which I've come across a number of time from say the mid-1700's to about the first quarter of the 1800's. Examples are Pietie, Antie and Jantie, for Pietje, Antje and Jantje respectively.

 

I guess the variation -tie instead of -tje, may the result of less developed language/writing skills, variations of dialect an associated (simular) pronunciation or a combination of both.

 

Regards, Jk.

 

From: main@German-genealogy-ENG.groups.io [mailto:main@German-genealogy-ENG.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chris Pitt Lewis
Sent: Sunday, 26 July, 2020 12:34
To: main@German-genealogy-ENG.groups.io; heatherquilter@...
Subject: Re: [German-genealogy-ENG] Hans vs. Johann

 

How should I pronounce the Dutch "tje" ending? I have an ancestor from a Dutch family in colonial New York who appears in the records as "Annatje" or "Antje". I was told by a New York genealogist to pronounce it the same as "Anneke", but I am not sure that is right.

Chris Pitt Lewis

On 26/07/2020 09:46, Hanneke Wood wrote:

The same happens in Dutch -when there's a small pool of names and you get too many in the family you have to differentiate somehow -and then also there was the habit of giving a formal name for the birth certificate: so my Uncle Hans was Johannes Fredericus, my Uncle Marin was Marinus Franciscus. My name is actually Johanna, as was my grandmother -she was Han, and i am Hanneke -you could also find Hannie, Hannetje and Johanneke all in the same family and probably all christened Johanna. On Dutch forms there's always a place to fill in your informal name as well as your formal name.

Chris Pitt Lewis
 

Thank you for this, which is very helpful, as was the reply I received off list from Hanneke Wood.

I had not realised Wiktionary had this sort of pronunciation help.

I imagine that "tie" is simply a spelling variation, since i and j are originally variant ways of writing the same letter in the Roman alphabet.

Chris Pitt Lewis
On 26/07/2020 12:09, John W. Kitz wrote:

Chris, and others,

 

This https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-tje Wiktionary article probably answers your question.

 

Etymology [of -tje]

From Middle Dutch -kijn, from Old Dutch -kīn, which is the ancestor of the suffixes -ke, -ken, -tje (and its subvarieties: -je, -etje, -pje, -kje) and Afrikaans -tjie ([ki]).

 

So as far as writing and meaning goes I would say Antje and Anneke are similar but not the same, that is to say An + -tje = Antje whereas Anne + -ke = Anneke.

 

For the pronunciation of -tje, make sure your headphones or speakers are plugged and your volume is set to a comfortable level and click on the play button.

 

From personal experience and considering I'm not the author of the article I'm referring to above; the article seems to be missing the variation -tie, which I've come across a number of time from say the mid-1700's to about the first quarter of the 1800's. Examples are Pietie, Antie and Jantie, for Pietje, Antje and Jantje respectively.

 

I guess the variation -tie instead of -tje, may the result of less developed language/writing skills, variations of dialect an associated (simular) pronunciation or a combination of both.

 

Regards, Jk.

 

From: main@German-genealogy-ENG.groups.io [mailto:main@German-genealogy-ENG.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chris Pitt Lewis
Sent: Sunday, 26 July, 2020 12:34
To: main@German-genealogy-ENG.groups.io; heatherquilter@...
Subject: Re: [German-genealogy-ENG] Hans vs. Johann

 

How should I pronounce the Dutch "tje" ending? I have an ancestor from a Dutch family in colonial New York who appears in the records as "Annatje" or "Antje". I was told by a New York genealogist to pronounce it the same as "Anneke", but I am not sure that is right.

Chris Pitt Lewis

On 26/07/2020 09:46, Hanneke Wood wrote:

The same happens in Dutch -when there's a small pool of names and you get too many in the family you have to differentiate somehow -and then also there was the habit of giving a formal name for the birth certificate: so my Uncle Hans was Johannes Fredericus, my Uncle Marin was Marinus Franciscus. My name is actually Johanna, as was my grandmother -she was Han, and i am Hanneke -you could also find Hannie, Hannetje and Johanneke all in the same family and probably all christened Johanna. On Dutch forms there's always a place to fill in your informal name as well as your formal name.

John W. Kitz
 

Chris,

 

Again it's splitting hairs, but in general and considering I'm not a linguist historically speaking I'd agree that many letters, such as the c and the k and the i and the j, were considered to be interchangeable when writing and when sorting words or names alphabetically.

 

As far as pronunciation is concerned I'd argue that today -tje is pronounced differently than -tie. Whether that was true in the early 1800's and before I don't know..., some may consider me old, but I'm not that old : ).

 

Regards, Jk.

 

From: Chris Pitt Lewis [mailto:chris@...]
Sent: Sunday, 26 July, 2020 17:18
To: main@German-genealogy-ENG.groups.io; John.Kitz-gen@...
Subject: Re: [German-genealogy-ENG] Hans vs. Johann

 

Thank you for this, which is very helpful, as was the reply I received off list from Hanneke Wood.

I had not realised Wiktionary had this sort of pronunciation help.

I imagine that "tie" is simply a spelling variation, since i and j are originally variant ways of writing the same letter in the Roman alphabet.

Chris Pitt Lewis

On 26/07/2020 12:09, John W. Kitz wrote:

Chris, and others,

 

This https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-tje Wiktionary article probably answers your question.

 

Etymology [of -tje]

From Middle Dutch -kijn, from Old Dutch -kīn, which is the ancestor of the suffixes -ke, -ken, -tje (and its subvarieties: -je, -etje, -pje, -kje) and Afrikaans -tjie ([ki]).

 

So as far as writing and meaning goes I would say Antje and Anneke are similar but not the same, that is to say An + -tje = Antje whereas Anne + -ke = Anneke.

 

For the pronunciation of -tje, make sure your headphones or speakers are plugged and your volume is set to a comfortable level and click on the play button.

 

From personal experience and considering I'm not the author of the article I'm referring to above; the article seems to be missing the variation -tie, which I've come across a number of time from say the mid-1700's to about the first quarter of the 1800's. Examples are Pietie, Antie and Jantie, for Pietje, Antje and Jantje respectively.

 

I guess the variation -tie instead of -tje, may the result of less developed language/writing skills, variations of dialect an associated (simular) pronunciation or a combination of both.

 

Regards, Jk.

 

From: main@German-genealogy-ENG.groups.io [mailto:main@German-genealogy-ENG.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chris Pitt Lewis
Sent: Sunday, 26 July, 2020 12:34
To: main@German-genealogy-ENG.groups.io; heatherquilter@...
Subject: Re: [German-genealogy-ENG] Hans vs. Johann

 

How should I pronounce the Dutch "tje" ending? I have an ancestor from a Dutch family in colonial New York who appears in the records as "Annatje" or "Antje". I was told by a New York genealogist to pronounce it the same as "Anneke", but I am not sure that is right.

Chris Pitt Lewis

On 26/07/2020 09:46, Hanneke Wood wrote:

The same happens in Dutch -when there's a small pool of names and you get too many in the family you have to differentiate somehow -and then also there was the habit of giving a formal name for the birth certificate: so my Uncle Hans was Johannes Fredericus, my Uncle Marin was Marinus Franciscus. My name is actually Johanna, as was my grandmother -she was Han, and i am Hanneke -you could also find Hannie, Hannetje and Johanneke all in the same family and probably all christened Johanna. On Dutch forms there's always a place to fill in your informal name as well as your formal name.